1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,600 And now, ladies and gentlemen, the Alan Douglas Show. 2 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,760 If you tend to listen to radio conversation programs, and if you're listening to this 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,760 one, then probably you have the habit, you've heard the airwaves crackle again and again 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,000 with talk about unidentified flying objects. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,480 Talk about UFOs is like a kind of recurrent epidemic. 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,560 The rash keeps breaking out time and time again. 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,760 This thing, in my recollection, began back in 1946. 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,040 And it took a couple of years to get into full swing. 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:42,600 By 48, flying saucers, the pre-air force term for those unexplainable heavenly lights, 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,760 had become front-page news. 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:50,080 If I recall correctly, the press and the radio then treated UFO stories with a kind of a 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,160 tongue-in-cheek style. 13 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:56,360 Flying saucers, after all, made pretty good copy when you ran short of Capitol Hill scandals 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,800 or a good hot election or a decent society murder. 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,480 In the past 20 years, though, I seem to sense that the press attitude has changed. 16 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:11,680 For one thing, UFO stories, by and large, don't get to the front page too much anymore. 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:17,840 If they do, the follow-up stories drop fast to page 3 or 6 or 16. 18 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,000 And the style seems to me to be down the middle, straight reporting. 19 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,920 Unlike the era of the late 40s and the 50s, it now seems that a body can conceivably report 20 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:34,080 an encounter with an unidentified flying object or a sighting and suffer relatively little 21 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:35,080 repercussion. 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,920 It is now apparent that reports about UFOs are not going to stop, and therefore it's 23 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:44,600 logical to assume that the seeing of flying saucers is not a fad like the swallowing of 24 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:50,800 goldfish or marathon dancing or any of those mongo crazies that are peculiar to each generation. 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:57,320 The rash of UFO sightings and encounters continues and intensifies in some pretty impressive, 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,800 some pretty logically-minded manner concerned about it. 27 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Frank Edwards, a veteran Washington newsman, a man who has earned his reputation and his 28 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,760 livelihood from his ability to collect and evaluate pure fact, is concerned about it. 29 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:17,640 And he's written an excellent book on the subject of UFOs, and with it, he is now the 30 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:22,640 nomination's coveted top ten best-selling book list for nonfiction. 31 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:24,320 And you don't get there by accident. 32 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:29,680 It takes some talent, and it takes some fact, and it takes some ability as a writer, I might 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:30,680 add. 34 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,520 His book is called Flying Saucers Are Serious Business. 35 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:39,640 Earl Neff, who's appeared with us on radio several times in the past, as well as on contact, 36 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:45,360 which preceded me on WKYC, now devotes full energies to lecturing and writing on the subject 37 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:46,360 of UFOs. 38 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,880 If you've heard Earl on the radio before, you know he's no fattest, no offbeat character. 39 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,240 He's a very intelligent, very curious, I think rather conservative man. 40 00:02:55,240 --> 00:03:00,040 And I suspect that he doubts UFO stories to a greater degree than most of us until he 41 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,000 digs out the fact from the fantasy. 42 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,240 And then, after he's got the fact straight, only then does he form his opinion. 43 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,200 So I think we have some rather serious-minded men with us tonight. 44 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,600 Let me say Frank Edwards, I read your book, I read part of your book. 45 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,600 I just started it this weekend. 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:15,600 It's a book I have to finish. 47 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,600 And I said before we went on the air, I just want to say it again. 48 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,600 I said it to you before we went on so that you know I meant it. 49 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,600 And I'll say it again so the audience can hear it. 50 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:29,600 I was really hooked by this book, particularly the way it started. 51 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,600 You get right to the crux of the matter, and in one big hurry. 52 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:39,600 You're not only an interesting writer, but you raise some very alarming points. 53 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,600 Thank you, sir. 54 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:41,600 Thank you. 55 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:42,600 Thank you. 56 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:43,600 Thank you. 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:44,600 Thank you. 58 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:45,600 Thank you. 59 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:46,600 Thank you. 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:47,600 Thank you. 61 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:48,600 Thank you. 62 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:49,600 Thank you. 63 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:50,600 Thank you. 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:51,600 Thank you. 65 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:52,600 Thank you. 66 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,600 Thank you. 67 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,600 Thank you. 68 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:55,600 Thank you. 69 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Thank you. 70 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:57,600 Thank you. 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,600 Thank you. 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:03:59,600 Thank you. 73 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,600 Thank you. 74 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,600 Thank you. 75 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:02,600 Thank you. 76 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:03,600 Thank you. 77 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,600 Thank you. 78 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:05,600 Thank you. 79 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:06,600 Thank you. 80 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:07,600 Thank you. 81 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:08,600 Thank you. 82 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,600 Thank you. 83 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,600 Thank you. 84 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:11,600 Thank you. 85 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:12,600 Thank you. 86 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:13,600 Thank you. 87 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:14,600 Thank you. 88 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:15,600 Thank you. 89 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:16,600 Thank you so much. 90 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:17,600 Thank you very much. 91 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,600 Thank you. 92 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:19,600 Thank you. 93 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,600 Thank you Hello from the DCB, thank you. 94 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:21,600 Thank you so much. 95 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:22,600 Thank you. 96 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:23,600 Thank you. 97 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,600 Thank you. 98 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,600 Thank you. 99 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:26,600 Thank you. 100 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Thank you. 101 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:28,600 Thank you. 102 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:29,600 Thank you. 103 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:30,600 Thank you. 104 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:31,600 Thank you, Yatterstah, thank you. 105 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:33,600 Thank you, Lary. 106 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,600 Thank you and thank you so much for the invitation. 107 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:37,600 Thank you Jr. 108 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,600 Thank you everyone. 109 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,680 ten million sponsors in one night. Probably the only guy in the history of the broadcasting 110 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,400 business who ever lost ten million sponsors in one night, Alan. 111 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,640 If my attention seemed to be drifting from what I was just going down, I was the sponsor 112 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,000 tonight. And I'm just checking things out for you. 113 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,000 You're in view of it. 114 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,000 You won't find the Air Force. 115 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,000 No, it's a matter of fact. 116 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000 At least after tonight. 117 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:05,240 I don't know. The Air Force doesn't sponsor me. If they did, I might be in more trouble 118 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:10,920 than I am at the moment. Listen, I want to be sure and mention one of the big reasons 119 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,480 that you're in Cleveland. You're in Cleveland to sell your book. And the book I might add 120 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,840 is published by Lyle Stewart. I personally recommend it for anybody that wants an interesting, 121 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:27,720 fascinating reading on a subject that has not bugged me to the extent that it does now 122 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:34,040 since I began reading your book. I'm more bugged than I was. I was concerned and curious 123 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,840 and I have been known to say on the radio that I believe that it would be irreverent 124 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:43,440 of any of us to assume that there's nothing out there or that there could be nothing out 125 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,160 there. I personally have never been blessed with a sighting. But I, on the other hand, 126 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:53,120 am not so irreverent as to suppose that it couldn't be a superior intelligence, one 127 00:05:53,120 --> 00:06:00,000 more capable than we are technologically out there somewhere in the heavens. But this book 128 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,200 really brings all of us into focus. And I was particularly concerned with some of your 129 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,720 research into the past, for example, the Alexander Hamilton story. And I'd love to have you tell 130 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,080 that to us if you would. This goes back to when, 1897? 131 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:23,080 1897, yes. There was a wealthy farmer who was also a very prominent citizen of the state 132 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:29,440 of Kansas, a member of the state legislature and very well known throughout the state. 133 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:38,400 He lived at the little town of Leroy, Kansas. And in 1897, one night, he heard quite a rumpus 134 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,600 in the cattle lot. And he suppose that maybe one of his dogs was out there harassing the 135 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:49,680 cattle. He jumped up and his son, who was a teenage boy at the time, got up with him 136 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:55,480 and they could hear all this noise out there. And just to be on the safe side, they grabbed 137 00:06:55,480 --> 00:07:01,680 the nearest substitute for a weapon that they had, a couple of double-bitted axes. And they 138 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,760 got the hired man up and he grabbed an axe and they all went back there. And they all 139 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:12,360 signed an affidavit the following day. And they said that as they approached the cattle 140 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:20,280 lot and came around behind the big barns, they saw a durageable-shaped thing which was 141 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:27,520 red in color. And it had some sort of a cabin hanging beneath it and some kind of a big 142 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:33,520 wheel below the cabin, which was turning slowly. And in the cabin, through the transparent 143 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:39,560 windows in this brightly lighted cabin, they could see small human-like creatures, which 144 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,880 they said were, by their standards and opinions, hideous. And these creatures seemed to be 145 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:50,160 excitedly talking to each other, although they could not hear what they were saying, the farmer 146 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:58,640 and his men. They found that one of his yearling cattle had a noose around its neck and the 147 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:04,560 noose was caught in a fence, or the cable was caught in a fence. And the cable went from the 148 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:10,960 fence to the cabin underneath this craft, whatever it was. And the craft was obviously trying to 149 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,840 lift this heifer. They were trying to steal it, or just take it, I guess you'd say. Maybe they were 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:22,360 collecting samples weren't they just lifting it? They were trying to, yeah, live literally. The 151 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:28,640 hired man ran over to try to chop the cable in two. He accidentally cut the fence in two. And the 152 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:34,520 thing took off with the heifer dangling by the neck beneath it. They found it the following day. 153 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,080 They found the hide and hoops and tail in a wheat field about seven miles away. 154 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,320 Frank's been talking all day. When these fellas land, I hope they have a cure for the common cold. 155 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:54,760 And that's a matter of fact, they may have a few things we don't want. It was curious to me, in 1897, 156 00:08:55,280 --> 00:09:02,240 that this thing was as carefully documented as it was. As you probably notice in the book, I carry 157 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:10,480 all the list of all the bankers and doctors and lawyers and newspaper editors and everybody else 158 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:17,760 who signed the affidavit that they were familiar with the character and reputation of the men involved, 159 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:25,400 including Mr. Hamilton, and also with the other details of the case itself. Because when the hide 160 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:32,280 and hoops were found, it was easy to identify them by, of course, by the brand. So I thought this 161 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:38,400 was one of the best documented cases and certainly one of the most bizarre cases that I ever ran 162 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,520 across in this 20 years of research in this field. 163 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:49,640 No, you mentioned in your book that in that year, earthbound duragables were not that unusual. 164 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,520 That I guess there were some experiments going on in France, wasn't it? 165 00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:04,400 No, the zeppelins never came along. There were a few specimens extant in Europe, but they were very 166 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,640 underpowered and they could not possibly have crossed the... 167 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,840 Yeah, they certainly couldn't have come over here. Also mentioned, I guess as an aftermath of that story, 168 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:19,680 the mystery that's around that case when the remains of this young heifer were found, what, 169 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:24,720 some three, four, five miles? Several miles away in the middle of a wheat field and there was no 170 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,200 indication at all that they had been carried there. They had obviously been dropped there because 171 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,320 there were no tracks through the wheat, which would certainly have been there had anyone walked 172 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:43,120 through it. No, here's something I haven't as yet arrived at in your book and I'm reading it with the 173 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,400 kind of time that I have and the other reading that I have to do. But this is one book I want to 174 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:55,480 stay with. Please tell me in advance though. There was a period of some 20 years, you say, between 1926 175 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:04,920 and 1946 when there were no sightings. Well, there was a period from about 26 to 46 when there were... 176 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:13,680 when I have been unable to find any evidence of any sightings of objects that could be included in 177 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:20,520 this UFO group. Why do you suppose that 20 year period went by? Have you formed any opinion about it? 178 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:28,840 Yes, I have. I think that the reason was in 26 we had some fairly good heavier than air flying machines. 179 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:37,000 In fact, they seem to be better than the objects that could not be identified. But until the operators 180 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,800 of these things could come up with something better than we had. Would they have had to be better? 181 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Well, I'll tell you, Alan, if we go to another planet and find it inhabited as we probably will do 182 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,960 someday, we will want to be very certain that whatever we're traveling around there in is better 183 00:11:54,960 --> 00:12:00,360 than anything that they've got before we go in close enough and discover that we have become samples 184 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:07,040 or specimens. And I think this is what happened in our case. They had these cumbersome, durageable shaped 185 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:12,480 things. They were not as good as our heavier than aircraft, so they simply disappeared. But when they 186 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:19,400 came back 20 years later in 1946, they had the so-called flying saucers, which were far better than 187 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,040 anything that we have, that we have to this day as a matter of fact. 188 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,600 Seems strange to me. The thing that I have difficulty with is understanding how extraterrestrial 189 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:38,320 intelligences or intelligence could conceive a craft that would fly through space and arrive at this 190 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:45,640 planet and then would find itself unable to negotiate the Earth's atmosphere and to fly through the 191 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:54,320 Earth's atmosphere with the same ability that the biplanes had. It seems a little strange, but on the 192 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,360 other hand, the whole thing is strange, so I don't know why I find that difficult to believe. In a 193 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:04,080 moment, I want to ask Frank Edwards, and we have Frank Edwards with us tonight, who is the author of 194 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,240 Flying Saucers, a serious business time magazine, said you're number what, seven or six? 195 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,000 Six now. 196 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,840 Number six on the nonfiction bestselling list. 197 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:19,520 On page 81, in one issue, they blasted me. And on page four, the same issue, they promoted me from 198 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,120 10th to 6th place. 199 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:27,360 There seems to be no relationship between their reviews and the status of the book. Look at Harold 200 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Robbins, who I don't think has ever had a good review from Time Magazine. I don't want to compare you to 201 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Harold Robbins, of course, but he seems to get up there pretty fast. I don't think they had much to 202 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,480 say good about the Valley of the Dolls either, which has been on the number one spot in fiction, I guess. 203 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,080 Oh, months and months and months. 204 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,280 It's going to get a record if it keeps going. 205 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:56,200 With us also, Mr. Earl Neff. Mr. Neff is a lecturer and a ufologist, a writer who's coming out with a book of 206 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:57,720 his own very shortly. 207 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,200 Friday. 208 00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:59,320 Friday it comes out. 209 00:13:59,320 --> 00:13:59,840 Here it comes out. 210 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,720 It's the compilation of UFO evidence. 211 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,600 It's a very interesting book that Earl has put together. We'll talk about that. 212 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,200 And we'll also get to this question that I want to ask Mr. Edwards. 213 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:23,480 And this has to do with the blackout situation last year and some of the reported blackouts in the past. 214 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:31,120 And very curious, curious information comes to us by way of Mr. Edwards' book, which gets back into that 215 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,160 blackout controversy of last year. 216 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:39,560 And it wasn't anywhere near as much of a controversy as it apparently begins to be in Frank's book. 217 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,400 Frank Edwards just autographed a book for Earl Neff and it reads, don't read this book after dark. 218 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,600 We will get to these questions in just a moment. 219 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:50,600 Frank, you all right now? 220 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,200 Forty-two years on the broadcast of Business and Health. 221 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,280 We'll get the look out of the open mic. 222 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:57,560 You know, Alan? 223 00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Forty-two years in here really. 224 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,600 Well, it's kind of a novel experience. 225 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,280 When I get accustomed to it, I'll be all right. 226 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:08,560 You know, Alan, when Frank arrived here this afternoon and he called me, he said, this is Frank. 227 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,200 And I said, Frank, cool. 228 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,480 I couldn't recognize the voice. 229 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,560 And you know, the first thing you knew, I was talking just like he was. 230 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:16,560 I was catching it. 231 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,360 He's got it that bad. 232 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,320 Well, Frank was not as big because of his day. 233 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,760 And he's been talking all day long. 234 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,480 As a matter of fact, I was over there too, working another part of the showroom. 235 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,600 And I could hear him and he was doing great. 236 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:32,640 And he had everybody all spellbound. 237 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,800 And I don't know how long a man can go, you know, without beginning to run out of voice. 238 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,800 Even a man as strong and as capable as Frank Edwards. 239 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:45,240 And when so notable a personage as Mr. Edwards comes in the tower, delighted to have him. 240 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,120 Now, let's get to this blackout business, Frank. 241 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:50,480 Where would you like to start at? 242 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,520 I'd like to start last fall, 1965 with East Coast Blackout. 243 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:55,440 November the ninth. 244 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:55,960 Yeah. 245 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:03,360 Well, when that thing happened, the organization of which I'm one of the members of the board 246 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,160 of governors, NYCAP, which I'm sure Earl has often mentioned here on this show. 247 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,120 This is the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. 248 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:19,520 We immediately got in touch with some of our members and consultants up in that part of the country. 249 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:25,240 But particularly at the universities around Syracuse and Ithaca and up in there. 250 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,840 And we had them get on the job right now to determine whether or not there was any real 251 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,960 evidence of any UFO activity there at the time of the blackout. 252 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,000 Now, there were some UFOs in the area, a couple at least. 253 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,480 One of them was pictured on the front page of the Syracuse paper the next day. 254 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:54,240 But there was absolutely no evidence to connect the UFOs with the big blackout. 255 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:01,600 Now, I know this is at variance with a statement that is sometimes credited to me and always 256 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,840 credited to a fellow who has written another UFO book. 257 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:14,920 But I repeat that there was no evidence that NYCAP's consultants could find that would indicate 258 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,960 that the UFOs had any part in that particular blackout, the big one. 259 00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:26,520 Although they have very definitely been important factors in some other blackouts, but not in 260 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,280 the big one of last November the night. 261 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,520 But there were many fireball sightings. 262 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:32,760 Oh, yes, yes. 263 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,600 There were some fireballs out. 264 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:40,600 But none of these objects that were sighted up there on that particular night, Alan, were where 265 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,720 they could have caused the blackout. 266 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:51,040 It apparently was exactly what it was described as being a breakdown of some very delicate 267 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,880 and intricate machinery and equipment that just simply didn't function properly. 268 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:02,160 And as a result, it spread rapidly from one place to another until it just paralyzed that 269 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:03,560 whole New England area. 270 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:13,480 But at NYCAP, we are confident that the UFOs did not play an important part in that one at all. 271 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:19,200 Then there was just an atmosphere of what hysteria about the stories and there were these stories. 272 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:25,760 Unfortunately, there were some people peddling these stories and some who should have known better. 273 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:37,840 And I know that one newspaper ran an eight column banner head in which they said that the UFOs had 274 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,920 caused this and they quoted a guy who professed to be a UFO authority. 275 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:49,760 Well, if he was a UFO authority, he was more of an authority on UFOs than he was on truth 276 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,840 because there was absolutely nothing to his story, whatever. 277 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,320 I never personally, I never heard of a guy before or since, which is all right with me. 278 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,480 Well, how do you distinguish between between fact and fantasy? 279 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:09,120 You've got a tremendous amount of fact in this book and you write beautifully about it. 280 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:13,400 But how do you how do you determine the difference between what is valid and what's not? 281 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:15,680 How does Frank Edwards make this decision? 282 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,600 Well, in the book now, you must remember that in this new book of mine, that is really the result 283 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:26,440 of 20 years of study and research and certain patterns develop Alan. 284 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:35,040 You soon realize that there are certain things that are true of these UFOs and certain things that are not true of them. 285 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:42,400 So when somebody comes up with a big story about how they were met by a golden girl in some uranium 286 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:49,160 coveralls out in the edge of the desert and she took them into this thing and they flew to Venus and 287 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,600 they came back and the sky goes around making speeches. 288 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,680 Even if you know very little of the fundamentals, you would suspect such a story. 289 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:07,080 But if you know the facts, you can quickly check out the things that aren't right and which plainly point out to you that the story is full of discrepancies. 290 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,400 The same thing is true of photographs. 291 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:17,280 UFOs have come in a few very easily recognizable shapes and sizes. 292 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:26,720 And when you get these pictures, for instance, there's one now, there's a color photograph being sold supposedly of a UFO. 293 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:33,920 As a matter of fact, it's a hubcap suspended from a nylon fish line between two trees. 294 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:41,720 And it's been photographed from different sides and in color and it's being sold to the gullible. 295 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:42,840 But anyone who read it... 296 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:43,840 How do you tell us the hubcap? 297 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,280 Because I know the guy who did it. 298 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,200 That's very helpful. 299 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,160 But I would have suspected it being a hubcap anyhow. 300 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:59,960 Because the first place, the nature of the photograph makes it suspect. 301 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,680 It's too conveniently dangled between two trees. 302 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:05,600 It's too composed. 303 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,760 Yeah, it looks like something that just didn't happen. 304 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,280 Well, you talk about hubcaps. 305 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,880 How about this picture that was taken... 306 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:13,960 The Eflan picture? 307 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,960 Yeah, the Eflan picture in Los Angeles County. 308 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:17,960 That doesn't look like a hubcap. 309 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,960 I don't know. 310 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,640 What difference do you draw between this picture, this series of pictures? 311 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:25,960 Is it the guy's story? 312 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,960 Let me explain what the pictures are. 313 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:38,600 On the night of August 2nd and 3rd last year, a lot of quarter of a million people stood out in the open between the Canadian border and the border of Mexico. 314 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:44,160 And they watched strange lighted objects maneuvering around in the sky. 315 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,080 These things flew around and under and over various commercial planes. 316 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,480 They were photographed in color and black and white. 317 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,680 They were seen on radar. 318 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,520 They were tracked. 319 00:21:54,520 --> 00:22:01,200 They were seen by police and airport people and commercial flyers, everybody else. 320 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:07,400 And the following morning, this Rex Eflan, who is a man with an excellent reputation. 321 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,400 He's a minor official in the Los Angeles County Highway Department. 322 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,400 He was driving along on Mitford Road near Santa Ana, California. 323 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,200 He'd gone to photograph the scene of a fatal wreck the night before. 324 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,800 He had a loaded Polaroid camera on the seat of his truck. 325 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,400 And he saw this object, this disc-shaped thing, coming toward him across the field. 326 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,800 It's a very foggy morning or hazy as they call it, smoggy, pardon me. 327 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,280 And this thing came and stopped over the road in front of him. 328 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:46,200 He stopped and he made three pictures in all, one out the windshield and two out the side door of the truck. 329 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:54,200 The Air Force looked at some copies of the original and they said why this is nothing. 330 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,000 Just a hoax. 331 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,400 This man has sailed a half out there and photographed it. 332 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:07,200 Now, we got some experts from two of the aviation companies out there and United Press had also done the same thing. 333 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:13,800 We sent men down there with the same equipment to make the same kind of picture under the same conditions. 334 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,800 And they found out that you could make that picture by sailing a hat. 335 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,800 But the hat had to be slightly larger than a Volkswagen. 336 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:23,800 That's a pretty big hat. 337 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,800 Frank, may I also inject this to Alan? 338 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:34,000 The fact that the radio of the Rex's was malfunctioning during that time. 339 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,200 Other radios as well. 340 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,200 So that's not a phony picture. 341 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,200 Alan, the important thing in that picture was something that the Air Force didn't mention. 342 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:46,800 You notice in the first picture where the object is hovering over the shoulder of the road. 343 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,000 You notice the white patch on the shoulder of the road. 344 00:23:50,400 --> 00:24:02,400 When you magnify the original picture, you can see that this disturbance directly underneath the object is actually a consist of particles of dust and gravel and sticks and stuff. 345 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,400 Jumping up in the air about a foot or 15 inches. 346 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:15,400 Now, this is a common characteristic of the gravitational disturbance under these UFOs when they are at low altitude. 347 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,800 And it was not mentioned by the Air Force for pretty obvious reasons. 348 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,800 But the minute I saw the picture, I looked for that and there it was. 349 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:36,800 Because I have so many reports where highly credible and competent witnesses have noticed this same peculiarity, this same phenomenon, under the objects when they're at low altitude. 350 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,800 And there they are in that picture. 351 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:47,200 When I look at this picture, I'm not, I can't be absolutely sure that that object is directly over the disturbance on the shoulder of the road. 352 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:56,200 It is not directly over, but a vertical axis through the object goes down toward that, yes. 353 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:06,200 I'd also like to point out that the winds on this particular stretch of countryside near Santa Ana, California are reputedly pretty strong and pretty weird. 354 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:21,600 And I'm not doubting now your belief in this picture, but I would like to point out that apparently the belief that you place in these things must have a great deal to do with the individual who reports that the individual takes the picture. 355 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,600 Yes, very definitely. 356 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,600 Now, before the United Press distributed this picture, they did two things. 357 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:44,000 They conducted a thorough check into this man's background, his reputation, his standing with his superiors and they checked him out thoroughly and he checked out A1 and then they also checked out the picture and the equipment that was used. 358 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:54,000 And they came to the same conclusion that Nike had did, that this man photographed something very unusual under the conditions that he described. 359 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:07,400 It doesn't seem that a rationally minded, dependable man, a responsible man would driving along the road near Santa Ana, California suddenly stop and do something as kooky as staging a phony UFO picture. 360 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,400 That wouldn't be a good part. 361 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,400 I wouldn't buy with an out-buy that. 362 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Also, I think we ought to credit the Nikeap people out in that area because Nikeap, in case people don't just know what we're talking about, is a National Investigations Committee and they're a phenomenon, frankly, is one of the board members of. 363 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:40,800 And they have a very large organization, not only this country, it's represented in all 50 foreign countries, so that naturally when something of this kind happens, it's only natural that the people in the area closest are going to check it out. 364 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,800 And again, they did that here. 365 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:53,800 And also the Air Force did mention that this picture showed that the man had focused on a closer object that's distance out of focus. 366 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,800 This most certainly was not true. 367 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:01,800 The Air Force claimed it was, but it's definitely not because I got one of the pictures a minute ago off the wires here. 368 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:13,200 We had some photographic engineers from both North America and Convair out there go out and examine the scene and duplicate it, make efforts to duplicate it. 369 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:28,200 And they provided us with some very thorough but highly technical reports, which said that the Air Force's summation on this thing was completely invalid because it was at variance with the first laws of optics and also with the known facts in the case. 370 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:49,600 If there is one chapter that is really a cliffhanger and one that I think everybody will find most attractive and most absorbing, it's the chapter called Who's Driving, in which you speak of encounters, descriptions of encounters of those creatures inside the machines. 371 00:27:50,000 --> 00:28:02,000 And the thing that really stuck with me, one of the striking stories I think is the one of Jose Ponce and Gustavo Gonzalez, when was this? 372 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,000 November 28th? What year? 373 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,000 57, I think. 374 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,000 57? That's a wild story. 375 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,000 And apparently this thing has all kinds of proliferations. 376 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,000 There are people around the area apparently saw elements of the same thing. 377 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Yes, very definitely. It happened in Venezuela. 378 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,400 This was in Venezuela? 379 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,400 Yeah, wasn't it? Wasn't that the one just outside Caracas? 380 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,400 Oh yes, Caracas. That's right. 381 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,400 Now tell us about that story. 382 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:38,400 Well these two fellows whom you just mentioned were in the vegetable business down there and each morning, very early in the morning, they would get in their truck. 383 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:46,400 They have a new truck and they'd get in this truck and go out to a little farming community of Pataris, which is just outside Caracas. 384 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,800 They'd go out there and load up with the vegetables for the market, which they would bring in to their customers in the market. 385 00:28:52,800 --> 00:29:08,800 On this particular morning, they got into the beautiful residential section of Caracas and they noticed this glowing lighted thing over the road, hovering over the road about 4 or 5 feet above the road, or I should say the street. 386 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:15,800 They got to within about 50 or 60 feet of it with their truck and their engine died on the truck and their lights went out. 387 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:23,200 All they could see was this brightly lighted thing motionless there above the street. 388 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Well the two of them got out of the truck and walked slowly toward this thing to determine what it was. 389 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,200 They had never seen anything like it before. 390 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:38,200 Suddenly they told police they found themselves set upon by some small man-like creatures. 391 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:49,600 One of these men said that he was knocked down and he got to his knee and he was between this creature and the craft, or the UFO. 392 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:58,600 The creature was evidently trying to get by him or get around him to get to the craft, but he thought it was attacking him and it may have been at any rate. 393 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:07,600 He pulled his knife and as this small man-like creature made a lunge at him, he stabbed at it with the knife and he tried to stab it in the shoulder. 394 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:18,000 He said he might as well have stabbed a rock because his knife glanced off of it and he said he thought that he was done, that this was the end of it. 395 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:29,000 A few seconds later he was scrambling around on his hands and knees there and he saw his partner running down the street away from the scene and he got up and followed him. 396 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,000 They only had to go about three blocks to a police station. 397 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:38,400 When they got in the police station, they were in such a state of shock that the police thought they were drunk. 398 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:46,400 They examined them and tried to talk to them and they finally got them quieted down and took down the details of it and went back down there with them. 399 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:55,400 The truck was sitting there, the lights of the truck were back on, but the engine was dead, although the ignition was turned on and this object, this UFO, was gone. 400 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:08,800 Well, this would have been just another case had it not been for the fact that one of the best known obstetricians in Caracas had been just about a block behind these men. 401 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,800 He had been to a hospital on a case and was on his way home. 402 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:18,800 He saw their truck stop, he saw the object hovering over the street and he stopped to see what this was all about. 403 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,200 He saw the fight and saw the whole thing and then saw the thing take off. 404 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:32,200 After the men took off for the police station, he saw the little fellows, the humanoids, get into this craft and saw it take off. 405 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:42,200 He went to the police station and actually got there before these men got away and he examined them and determined for the police that they were not drunk but were in a state of shock. 406 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:51,600 He later gave sworn statements to the government of Venezuela and as I know in the book, very interesting coincidence. 407 00:31:52,600 --> 00:32:05,600 On the following day, some of the top newsmen from the United States showed up in Caracas and whether it was mere coincidence or not, I don't know, but it's strange that they should be there. 408 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:15,000 This doctor, this obstetrician, was questioned by a delegation of Air Force intelligence men who were sent to Caracas. 409 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:26,000 He was questioned at great length as were the two truck drivers and the doctor, according to a newspaper in Venezuela, was later flown to this country for further questioning. 410 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:33,400 Now, why didn't we read about that in this country? 411 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:48,400 That's a very good question and the only ones I know who could answer that question would be the wire services because the story was carried in scores of South American papers and Latin American papers. 412 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:57,800 I never saw the story carried in any paper in this country and I got the whole story by having the wire service accounts for South America translated. 413 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,800 Well, that was not carried here, I don't know. 414 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,800 But you know the closer you get to Cleveland, the less you learn about UFOs. 415 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:10,800 What is it? 416 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,800 This has been a known fact because our papers were the first place we don't have any competition here. 417 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:21,200 Years ago we had three papers, the news, the press and the plane dealer. 418 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,200 Today we just have two and apparently they're afraid to handle a subject. 419 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:33,200 I've known of very good stories that are handed to the papers by professional writers and they're scared apparently of them or else their censorship or something. 420 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,200 I don't know but the further you get away from Cleveland the more you're likely to find good articles. 421 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,200 Well, this is not necessarily due to lack of competition. 422 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:56,600 I live in Indianapolis as you know Earl and we have as little competition in the newspaper business there as you can conceive because there are only two papers and both of them are owned and operated by the same man. 423 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:11,600 So he has no competition at all but he does a pretty good job of covering the UFO subject and just last week the editor of the evening paper, the Indianapolis News, ran a three column story on the editorial page. 424 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,600 About a UFO which he and his neighbors had watched the night before. 425 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:24,600 So it must be the difference in coverage, it must be the difference in personalities. 426 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,600 The personalities have a big part to play. 427 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:33,600 We have people in this town who would not believe a flying saucer even if it landed on their desk. 428 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:40,600 I mean in the newspapers this I know and all you have to do is read your so-called science columns in your paper and you'll find out. 429 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,000 In other words we have Dr. Menzel you might say in this area. 430 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000 Dr. Menzel? 431 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,000 Yes, Menzel was the foremost of the poopoo artists you might say of the UFO. 432 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,000 He wrote two books Alan. 433 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000 He wrote two books to prove that there are no such things. 434 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,000 In other words he wrote two books about nothing if you don't think so read them. 435 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:10,000 Frank one time said that he could use the same kind of logic that Menzel uses to prove that he didn't exist. 436 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:17,400 Yes you could use the same kind of treatment that Menzel uses of UFOs you could prove that Menzel doesn't exist. 437 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,400 How does books help? 438 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,400 Not very well. 439 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,400 Well of course I'm far beyond the question of Menzel's motives. 440 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:33,400 But on the other hand I guess if you write a book that proves the existence of nothing then one can expect to do about the same thing. 441 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,400 See you as well you're more than nothing. 442 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,800 I don't know whether that attests to the actual existence of UFOs or not. 443 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:55,400 But I must say that where something persists from biblical days and there's an early in Frank's book he comes to the Bible and finds references in the Bible which could easily be translated into UFO sightings and associations with creatures from some 444 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:12,400 extra-terrestrial source as easily as some of the claims and more easily than some of the claims I have seen put to the Old Testament. 445 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:27,400 Alan I think the strongest case that I make in the book for the existence of UFOs and their operators it's simply the numerous quotations that I have in there from our own government and from other governments. 446 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,400 Pointing out the title of the book is taken from an Air Force Order. 447 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,400 Flying saucers, serious business. 448 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,400 That's the title of the Air Force Order. 449 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:46,400 I've got a page in there from the Air Technical Intelligence Manual alerting their people to a new type of UFO coming into use in 1953. 450 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:57,400 I've got statements in there from the British government, from the French, from the government of South Africa, from Argentina, from Chile, from Brazil, from all these places. 451 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,400 Official statements on experiences that they've had with UFOs. 452 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:07,400 I'm curious to be that these statements come from people who are in one case retired. 453 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,400 Here's the Air Chief Marshall Lord doubting who is the head of the Royal Air Force in World War II. 454 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,400 He was quoted by Reuters August of 1954. 455 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,400 He said, of course, the flying saucers are real and they're interplanetary. 456 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:25,400 Here is, this is curious, Secretary of the Air Force to Base Commanders 1960. 457 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:32,400 The Air Force maintains a continuous surveillance of the atmosphere near Earth for unidentified flying objects. 458 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,400 Of course, he didn't say there's anything out there that is looking, I guess. 459 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:43,400 But it's curious to me that these are people who are once removed from positions of authority as we think of it. 460 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:51,400 In their official capacity as acting members of the government, they had to know what the government knew about this. 461 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,400 Now, as we know that they are retired, most of them join nightcap, I'll tell you that. 462 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:05,400 And they do it because they know that we are trying to get the government to reveal to the public the truth, whatever it may be. 463 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:11,400 There's a curious statement from the Honorable John McCormick, Speaker of the House, January 65. 464 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:19,400 And Mr. McCormick says, I feel that the Air Force has not been giving out all the available information on these unidentified flying objects. 465 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,400 You cannot disregard so many unimpeachable sources. 466 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,400 That seems to be pretty much it. 467 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:36,400 When the Air Force goes up to Hildale, Michigan, and comes back with a story about swamp gas, 468 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:47,400 I must say I must be one of the most unobservant creatures on Earth because I've spent a lot of time creeping and crawling through swamps at night. 469 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,400 And I have never seen this in the service. I don't do this as a rule. 470 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,400 But I've never seen this alleged swamp gas. 471 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,400 I think I've seen them under pretty good atmospheric conditions. 472 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,400 Well, it comes with the red and blue lights now, you know. 473 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,400 Oh, I see that. This is something entirely new. 474 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,400 Well, the Michigan swamp gas is the window in it. 475 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:14,400 And it's like Frank Speaks in his book there of the galloping volcanoes on the moon. 476 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,400 I mean, these are among the rare types, but that's what causes those lights up there, you know. 477 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:30,400 Well, you know, Alan, the Air Force made a classic boo-boo in August the 3rd of last year when they told all those tens of thousands of people out there in the Great Plain States 478 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:36,400 that they had been watching nothing more than four stars in the constellation Orion. 479 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:48,400 And the newspapers took offense at this because professional astronomers quickly pointed out that that constellation at that time was visible only from the other side of the Earth. 480 00:39:48,400 --> 00:40:04,400 So by the time this thing happened at Hillsdale, Michigan in 66, I have a collection of over 300 angry editorials demanding that the Air Force stop this nonsense and tell the public the truth. 481 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:17,400 Well, then when they bombed out with that swamp gas story up in Michigan, they literally blew themselves out of the business of being a credible source of explanations on UFOs 482 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,400 because they had completely discredited themselves. 483 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:36,400 And most of the moves that the Air Force has made since then have been moves in the direction of trying to restore some measure of their former stature as a source of information on this subject. 484 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:46,400 But I don't think they're doing too well because last week they fathered one. Could the UFOs be luminous flying ants? 485 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,400 I thought I heard you. 486 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:58,400 Yes, well I don't really see how they could be luminous flying ants if you're going to chase them with jet interceptors. 487 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,400 Because generally speaking, that would be pretty rough on the ants if you could find them. 488 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:09,400 One would have to admit that you could not catch a luminous flying ant with a jet interceptor. 489 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,400 How would you know when you had it? 490 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:18,400 I don't know how you know it. You certainly would commit one of the massive flybys of all time, I would judge. 491 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:25,400 And then they had another one they put out through an aviation magazine recently. A theory, very careful with all this stuff. 492 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:33,400 A theory that the UFOs were corona discharges from high tension lines. 493 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:40,400 This too is one of the, could be in the swamp gas category. 494 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:49,400 You know, Ellen, a few years back, back in the 50s, the Air Force wasn't quite as talented then as they are now with their replies. 495 00:41:49,400 --> 00:42:06,400 But they explained this angel hair that had festooned itself from telegraph pole to telegraph pole downstate for several miles as being a certain type of spider that had worked that particular night. 496 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:18,400 Those spiders were so busy that the shop owners had to sweep away all this angel hair from their shop window, their doorways the following morning. 497 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:28,400 Had they known that by just leaving it for a little while it would disappear, sort of like if you have a heavy snow in the winter you can wait till July and then not have to shovel it. 498 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,400 But this was only for a matter of a couple hours and it was all gone. 499 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:43,400 A girl I know used to live down there near Columbus when this occurred. You could catch it in your hands, your hands would maybe turn sort of a clammy cold and turn green for the time being. 500 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,400 But yet this was the spider that was working very industriously that particular night. 501 00:42:49,400 --> 00:43:01,400 Yeah, I think it's in your book that I read this observation Frank and that is the Air Force never asked for this job of UFO identification. 502 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:11,400 Yes sir. That's right. This thing was handed to the Air Force. Actually you know the Air Force inherited the whole problem from the Army Air Corps. 503 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:27,400 In 1947 when the UFO was the so-called flying saucer form, began to appear in numbers over the United States. It was the Army Air Corps and the Army Air Corps was completely flabbergasted by the phenomena with which they had to cope. 504 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:42,400 And they said on the announced on July 3rd of 47 that it was nothing but a form of hallucination and they couldn't have picked a worse day for the announcement. 505 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:53,400 They also on July the 4th the following day about 100,000 people stood out in the streets of Portland, Oregon and watched 10 of these things maneuvering around overhead. 506 00:43:53,400 --> 00:44:02,400 And if those people were having hallucinations their cameras were having them too because they could photograph them and they did. 507 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:11,400 And the Air Force was the Air Corps was just simply befuddled with the whole thing. But I think they were on the right track. 508 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:28,400 You see at that time we were only nine years away from the wars and wells and these war of the world thing which created mass hysteria and panic and induced quite a few suicides and some large juicy lawsuits that had to be settled out of court. 509 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:39,400 And so the government was the Army Air Corps was probably on the right track. The newspapers were playing these things up day after day after day on the front pages. 510 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:48,400 And there was a growing tension in the public mind and a lot of excitement. A lot of people were getting unnecessarily excited about this. 511 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:56,400 And so the decision to play it down until they found out what it was was probably a very good decision at the time. 512 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:10,400 Then when the Air Force came into being on January the 1st, 1948 they had only been in business as the Air Force for seven days when they lost a pilot at Fort Knox, Kentucky. 513 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:19,400 There were three of them set up after this huge UFO which was being observed crossing the state of Kentucky coming toward Fort Knox. 514 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:28,400 And these three planes were up and they were set up to close on this thing. Two of them ran out of fuel and had to go back. 515 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:38,400 But this one Captain Thomas Mantell got close to the object and he said I'm close enough to see that it's spherical, that it's huge, that it's metal. 516 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:47,400 And he said I'm going to try to close on it. Well he was never heard from again. We presume that he perished up there from lack of oxygen. 517 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,400 Although this would be very strange for a veteran fighter pilot like him to make that kind of a mistake. 518 00:45:52,400 --> 00:46:03,400 At any rate he died and they said that night at Fort Knox they held a press meeting and they said Captain Mantell was killed in pursuit of a flying saucer. 519 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,400 The plane was found. 520 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,400 The plane was found, yes. It was pretty badly torn up in the air. The pieces of it were scattered around. 521 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:21,400 Another peculiar thing as to why that particular type of plane which I recall is a P-51 would come apart even in a power dive. 522 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:30,400 Because they just didn't do that so the fliers tell me. I had a friend who was another one of the other two members in that group and he said this is for postures. 523 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:38,400 He said you could die one of those things wide open as far as she'd go and it was built like a locomotive. It just wouldn't come apart. 524 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:45,400 But his had come apart and it was pretty badly scattered. He was killed of course. 525 00:46:45,400 --> 00:47:02,400 But in 1952 when these things swarmed over Washington DC in such numbers that the Civil Aeronautics Administration published a special book on how many of them were over Washington on those nights. 526 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:09,400 What they looked like and especially what they looked like on the radar. They published a special book on the thing. 527 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:16,400 Well the government found itself in a very ticklish position. It was here dealing with something which it could not control. 528 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:27,400 Here was the government of the biggest nation on earth and the most powerful and the best armed having visitors in the air over the national capital with which it could not cope. 529 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:40,400 It had to do one of two things. It either had to admit this failure, this inability to cope with these things or it had to pretend that there was no such problem while all the time it tried to find the answers. 530 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:48,400 I think that was of course the decision they made. Of course they chose. I think it was a good one at the time. I don't think there's anything wrong about that at the time. 531 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:58,400 This was when the Air Force got the assignment to conduct all the investigations and to make only, to make the only public statements on UFOs. 532 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:08,400 No other government agency can do it. And the Air Force was further restricted so that they could tell the public only that these things were conventional objects or conditions. 533 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:18,400 That restriction has never been lifted. The assignment is still there. The Air Force still has the order, that assignment, and they still have that restriction on them. 534 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:36,400 And I think the Air Force has done a good job within the restrictions. But I think it's time that the restrictions were lifted and that the Air Force was permitted to tell the public whatever it is that it knows about these things and stop feeding us swamp gas. 535 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,400 Alan, what leads you to believe or do you believe that they know anything more than you know? 536 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:52,400 Oh, I'm sure they do because they have had access to pieces of these things. They may have had access to some very sizable pieces of the things. 537 00:48:52,400 --> 00:49:03,400 They have spent by their own admission $10 million investigating these things. I got a big laugh out of Walter Sullivan in the New York Times recently. 538 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:12,400 He fell for that old Air Force guff that all that they had to do in the investigation was one commissioned officer and a sergeant and somebody else. 539 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:21,400 Well, if that's true, what did they do with the $10 million which they admitted five months ago that they had spent investigating these things? 540 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:29,400 How do three men spend $10 million investigating anything for that matter? 541 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:49,400 Right over these microphones some years ago, you know, Admiral Herbert B. Knowles. I had Knowles on here and Knowles was in Washington at the very time that Frank was talking about when the UFOs were there in July of 52. 542 00:49:49,400 --> 00:50:01,400 That's right. And that's when Dr. Wilbert Smith, the late Dr. Wilbert Smith, the project magnet of Canada was also there. And Wilbert Smith actually handed two Knowles. 543 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:10,400 Knowles said this himself, Admiral Knowles, a piece of metal two feet long curved that had been shot down by an aircraft fire. 544 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:25,400 This under the microscope, every little particle looked like a solar system. It was a shiny piece of metal. And Knowles said that, yes, it's true that about 10 days, two weeks later, it was a dirty brown, apparently, due to our atmosphere. 545 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:44,400 Well, I have a statement from Wilbert Smith who had a Canadian investigation. He said that this thing was shot, he was told by the Air Force, that this piece which they gave him had been shot off of a small UFO over Maryland near Washington, D.C. during these July 52 sightings. 546 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:57,400 And he said that this, they analyzed the piece that was given to them up in Canada. They analyzed part of it and they found that it was iron. And it was conventional iron by our standards with one exception. 547 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:11,400 Instead of having a crystalline structure, it had a very fine globular structure. I believe he said .005 microns. That was the size of the tiny little spherical particle. 548 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:22,400 And he said he didn't understand how these particles hung together. We can understand how crystalline structures hang together. It's a sort of a felt-in-action. 549 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:32,400 But he said they couldn't understand how these tiny little globular particles of iron held together. But he said other than that, that there was nothing unusual about the piece. 550 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,400 That would have been the treatment of the steel. 551 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:50,400 I have a piece of metal that is not my own possession. It's in my possession, but I don't own it. And this too is iron, reportedly from one of these. It's so hard it'll cut glass if there's not a trace of carbon in it. 552 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:58,400 I've had spectrographic analysis of it. Washington is just dying to get a hold of it. I told them they could have it if I went with it. 553 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,400 Was it lighter? 554 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,400 It's very heavy. It's heavy? 555 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:13,400 It's very heavy. It will not rust. It's very shiny. It looks like it's been polished parts of it or it's been cut. Very, very difficult to cut. It takes them a lid and a blade a long time to cut through a piece. 556 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:28,400 It's a very curious thing. I would like to know just what you think these things are and just where you feel we're going. Frank Edwards in his book writes of the next UFO phase. 557 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:36,400 And on the dust jacket it reads, it's unprecedented implications for the human race. And I think we're all pretty curious about that. 558 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:49,400 We'll find out from Frank Edwards what he means by that and then we'll open our telephones and let you find out what else you want to know from Frank Edwards, the author of Flying Saucers Serious Business published by Lyle Stewart. 559 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:59,400 Now available at better bookstores everywhere and not so good bookstores anywhere. And just about anywhere you choose to go, it's on the best seller list. 560 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:18,400 Also, Mr. Earl Neff who is with us tonight. Mr. Neff is a Cleveland ufologist, a lecturer and writer. My name is Alan Douglas and I just sit and listen and I do this every night to my own great glee and financial pleasure on WKYC, AM and FM, NBC and Cleveland. 561 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:27,400 Now Frank, just what is it? What new era do you look forward to and what do you think these things are? 562 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:40,400 Well, let me say first in answer to this double barrel question. I think I agree with all the scientists with whom I'm associated in my cap. 563 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:51,400 And so far as I know they are all of the same opinion on this. That these craft are spacecraft, notice that I don't say interplanetary. 564 00:53:51,400 --> 00:54:06,400 They are spacecraft and that they are operated by intelligent beings. That the ones who actually operate them are not necessarily the ones who conceive and directed the program. 565 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:20,400 And that they have been coming here for a long time. I agree with Al Chop, the deputy public relations director of NASA, that we have known for a long time that these things have had us under systematic surveillance. 566 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:32,400 Apparently they are not hostile and apparently if they are going to contact us, we are getting very close to that point. 567 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,400 Does that answer your question? 568 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:40,400 Sure does. I just thought I'd leave that go for dramatic pause. That's quite a point. Do you think we're getting close? 569 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:53,400 Yes I do. And one of the things that makes me think that is the fact that each time these things are reported around one of our spacecraft, they come a little closer and stay a little longer. 570 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,400 And this couldn't be accidental. 571 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:15,400 You know Alan, back in April, the 8th I think it was, of 65, we had four UFOs come and follow one of our Gemini experimental, two men experimental capsules. 572 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:23,400 If they had just left the cape, left the launching pad, two went above it, one went below it, one went behind it. 573 00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:34,400 They followed this capsule for one complete orb of the Earth, then off into space they went again. Apparently they had learned their mission was accomplished. 574 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:41,400 I don't know what their mission was but their curiosity was certainly probably satisfied. 575 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:59,400 I spent quite a bit of time very recently with Major Kehoe. Some of the things he told me that particular day I have every reason to feel now we are getting much closer than we ever have been before to a big breakthrough. 576 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:14,400 The fact that they are coming here in various 1968 models makes me think that probably they have, like Frank said before, realized that we too are getting a bit further ahead in our technology and they have to keep a little bit further abreast. 577 00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:23,400 The ones that were seen in 52, the former trend type of saucer is no longer seen very much. 578 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:44,400 But I would like to say this that for people who are seriously concerned in this area with learning more about this kind of subject, that people who, like NiCAP and APRO, approach it very seriously and from an objective standpoint meet every third Saturday of the month. 579 00:56:44,400 --> 00:57:01,400 This particular Saturday will be that third Saturday and I will show there for the very first time something that the public will not receive in book form until June of next year when the publisher will release the book. 580 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:16,400 It's a beautiful book that's being published in Washington and rather has been authored in Washington and I've done the illustrations for them and I will on the screen this Saturday night at the Cleveland Uphology Project. 581 00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:32,400 This is at the Cuyahoga Savings and Loan Company. It's on Pearl Road, just one block beyond snow as you're leaving the city and we meet at 8 o'clock and I'll show these 12 on the screen for the very first time. 582 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:44,400 And one of them I might say, Frank, has familiarized me much more with this marvelous story that you told us beautifully before, the one of the heifer raised in the air. 583 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,400 Are these things you're going to show? Are they photographs or are they drawings? 584 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:55,400 These are illustrations. These are drawings that I have made of the very early sightings wherever they occurred. 585 00:57:55,400 --> 00:58:09,400 And I feel that the organization, we're an old organization. In fact, I think it was perhaps one of the first organizations of youthful groups to use the word Uphology. 586 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:18,400 They started back in 1957. I became their first chairman in 58, served a couple of terms and our founders are still with us. 587 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:31,400 We're a good, solid organization and I feel that the people who belong there, like C. Wesley Fitch, whom I noticed, Frank, you have credited in your book, who is a great personal friend of mine. 588 00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:38,400 These are people who are very serious and objectively approaching. He's one of the finest investigators in the nation. 589 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,400 Who coined the term UFO? Was it the Air Force term? 590 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:50,400 Yes, and it could be. It's the right term. You notice in my book I refer to them as UFOs, unidentified flying objects. 591 00:58:50,400 --> 00:59:00,400 Only the very early ones, the 46 and 47 up to late 53 models, were actually saucer shaped. They looked like inverted saucers and they were phased out. 592 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:15,400 As the Air Force points out in its Air Technical Intelligence Manual in September of 53, the disc shaped, the saucer shaped things were being phased out and being replaced by a single and sometimes a double convex type of craft. 593 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:23,400 And they printed the picture, which I carry in my book there, to alert their personnel to the fact that a new type was coming into use. 594 00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,400 This is a clear picture of what isn't there, is that it? 595 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:31,400 Yeah, a clear picture of a swamp gas, double convex swamp gas. 596 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:41,400 And because of the different shapes involved, unidentified flying objects is a more inclusive and more appropriate term. 597 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:53,400 Well, let me say that I think the term has also been beautifully glamorized. It may be just another Air Force term for something, but I would suggest that people like yourselves, Frank Edwards and Earl Niff, 598 00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:57,400 have done a lot to make it an intriguing term. 599 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:04,400 I wanted to ask Mr. Edwards, once that way I enjoyed very much listening to on TV when I was younger. 600 01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,400 Why do they always have to add that? 601 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:18,400 I got a letter the other day from a guy who wanted to bring his grandson to meet me, and they developed that the grandpa used to listen to me in Pittsburgh when he was a boy. 602 01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,400 It's a great status, man. You've heard this man deeply, but go ahead with your question. 603 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,400 Sorry about that. 604 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,400 I'm grieving now. 605 01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:38,400 What I wanted to ask is, do you believe that the Air Force will take off their restrictions, and why do they keep holding them now? 606 01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:47,400 I mean, people are getting more enlightened. They're not getting as hysterical as they were back when Orson Wells was doing all these things. 607 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,400 They're not getting as enlightened as they were back when Orson Wells was doing all these things. 608 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,400 Take the restrictions off. 609 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:58,400 Well, let me put this in his proper perspective here. The Air Force did not impose the restrictions. 610 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:06,400 They were imposed on the Air Force from some higher source. My guess would be the National Security Council. 611 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:16,400 So the Air Force cannot remove the restrictions which were imposed upon it, but I think they would gladly, you know, probability they would gladly tell the public the truth. 612 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:27,400 They were permitted to, but they can only go so far. And that's what I do in my book, is to tell the public what the Air Force is not permitted to tell them. 613 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:36,400 And I don't think the Air Force can make any change until the change is made for it, although I feel that they probably would like to make it. 614 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:42,400 I see. And one more question I'd like to ask. Is your book going to come out in paperback? 615 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:52,400 Eventually, yes. I really don't know when, but Vanham Books bought the paperback rights to it, and I really don't know when it will come out in paperback. 616 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,400 Because I've got a paperback budget, so I'll wait and I'll put it there. 617 01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:05,400 It follows as the paperback. It follows as the night shall follow the day that all books will come out in paperback. 618 01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:06,400 Thank you. 619 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,400 Thank you for calling. Hello. 620 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,400 Hello. 621 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:10,400 Yes, sir. 622 01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:11,400 Mr. Bartlett? 623 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:12,400 I can hardly hear you. 624 01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:13,400 Well, I hear you beautifully. 625 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:24,400 All right. Thank you. I would like to know, for me as a gentleman there, please, what their opinion would be of the author of the Anatomy of a Phenomenon by Jacques Valle? 626 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:31,400 Yes. He treats it from the standpoint of an astronomer. There are some aspects of it with which he is obviously unfamiliar. 627 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:41,400 But the research that he did was good, and his treatment of the subject is logical and very intelligent, as it should be from the man of his caliber. 628 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:49,400 In their experiences and their studies and research on it, what is their idea of the Fatima incident? 629 01:02:49,400 --> 01:03:06,400 I have no opinions on that at all. The first place, I'm not familiar with it. I regarded it as, for what I think it is, some sort of a religious, curious, religious story. 630 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:22,400 And I have never formed any opinions or conclusions on it. I saw a book somewhere, and I don't know whose book it was not. It may have been Valais, which treated the Fatima incident as though it might be involved with UFOs. 631 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:31,400 But on the basis of what I know of it, I doubt that, and I certainly don't know enough about it to arrive at the same conclusion. Let's put it that way. 632 01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:32,400 Thank you very much. 633 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:33,400 Thank you, Mr. Smully. 634 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:34,400 Thank you. 635 01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:41,400 We have a long distance call, and let's move to our telephone and see what this party wants to know or wants to tell us. Hello? 636 01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,400 Hello. 637 01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:43,400 Yes, Ben? 638 01:03:43,400 --> 01:04:01,400 I was wondering, since Mr. Edwards and Mr. Neff are associated with the ICAP, I have a publication from ICAP in which there is a statement that on December 4th, from Antigua, Germany 7 astronauts report, low be at 10 o'clock. 639 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:04,400 Now, did they actually see something? 640 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:06,400 Who were the astronauts? 641 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,400 I don't know. It's not mentioned. 642 01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:21,400 I think this was Borman. I believe this was the Borman case. He was one of the astronauts. In that case, they tried to assure him from the base station that he was looking at a booster rocket, and he said, right, you are. 643 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:31,400 I see the booster rocket in one direction, but this bogey is in another. And he said that this bogey is definitely not a booster rocket, nor a satellite. 644 01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:38,400 He said this is a football shaped or egg shaped thing. It's yellowish, orange in color and very bright. 645 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:53,400 Now, if that description was accurate, then it would also fit the description of the object which was photographed by Major MacGivott when he was up there with Major White. 646 01:04:53,400 --> 01:05:04,400 I saw three of these things in one orbit, and he made an excellent picture of one which was circling their capsule and leaving a vapor trail behind it which shows clearly in the picture. 647 01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,400 I got the picture from NASA, and I have it in my book. 648 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:09,400 Was circling their capsule? 649 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:10,400 Yes. 650 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,400 Didn't Scott Carpenter also have an hallucination? 651 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:29,400 I don't know whether Carpenter did or not, but I know that Major Gordon Cooper was the first one, and then Borman was the next one, and then White and MacGivott, and then more recently Collins and Young. 652 01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:36,400 And while they were describing the two that were pacing them, they were cut off the radio. 653 01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:52,400 I was interested in Brinkley's comment on that. He said, well, Collins and Young were cut off so they couldn't describe it anymore, and the newsman couldn't hear it, but he said, don't worry, boys, the Air Force would have told you it was swamp gas. 654 01:05:52,400 --> 01:06:05,400 It's always interesting how they'll tell you that no such object can be recorded as a UFO on radar, and you have thousands and thousands of other boys. I mean, thousands have been seen by the boys. 655 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:10,400 Well, the only statement of that type were, to my knowledge, CBS special. 656 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:23,400 Yeah, it was made on that thing, and what they did there, they edited the rest of the statement out off of the tape by the authorities who made it to create the, to change the entire meaning of what the man said. 657 01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:24,400 Sure. 658 01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:38,400 Now, before you said that one of these objects was reportedly, was it MacGivott's sighting, was circling the capsule, I was going to say that there are literally thousands of pieces of hardware up there. 659 01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:39,400 No. 660 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:44,400 All of which are known to NORAD and are plotted, and NORAD knows where they are and what they are. 661 01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:49,400 Even the glove, all the time. Even the glove that was lost, they can plot. 662 01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,400 Okay, that puts me down. How about you, ma'am? 663 01:06:51,400 --> 01:07:01,400 That was very interesting. I've been having a running battle with someone, and that might help ammunition. 664 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:02,400 I guess it could. 665 01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:04,400 Try if you can to get along with your husband. 666 01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,400 I'm afraid he is quite a skeptic. 667 01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:15,400 Well, let me point out to you that this is a field where the only skeptics are the uninformed. You may quote me to him, and I'll get you all. 668 01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,400 I will use that. 669 01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:24,400 I also have an article that I have picked up. I don't know whether you are familiar with it. 670 01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:31,400 It was in August 29th of the Cleveland press about Mr. Heineck, Dr. Heineck. 671 01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:32,400 Yes. 672 01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:45,400 I have a question about the fact that the American scientist has demonstrated a form of provincialism in failing to tackle one of the great mysteries of the 20th century. 673 01:07:45,400 --> 01:08:04,400 He warned that the attitudes of modern scientists toward the U.S. both parallel, those of saddlers toward meteorites reported 150 years ago when science ridiculed the notion that stones fell from the sky. 674 01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,400 Oh, yes, that was one of the classic blue-boos of science. 675 01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:20,400 Even when some noted scientists saw these things fall, they assured these noted scientists that they were nuts, that there could be no stones falling from the sky because there were no stones in the sky. 676 01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:22,400 Are these being a tectite? 677 01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,400 No, no, no. It's talking about meteorites. 678 01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:25,400 Meteorites, yes. 679 01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:35,400 Now, 1805, before they even admitted that the things existed, although many eminent scientists had been present when they had fallen. 680 01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:42,400 But the science, Orthodox science, would not accept it because it was contrary to their belief. 681 01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:45,400 There couldn't be any stones falling because there were none up there. 682 01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:49,400 There can't be any UFOs coming down because there are none out there. 683 01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,400 It's very simple. 684 01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:57,400 I will point from what your opinion was of this article. Has he had a change of heart? 685 01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:02,400 No, let me point out to you that Dr. Heineck is a very fine gentleman. 686 01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:18,400 And Dr. Heineck, as an employee of the Air Force, has to make some statements with which he may not be in full accord, such as the notorious swamp gas statement that he had to hand out up at Michigan last spring. 687 01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:25,400 He was, according to some statements he made in the presence of some network newsmen who had passed him on to me. 688 01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,400 He was not at all in accord with that statement. 689 01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:33,400 But Heineck is a very intelligent man. He's a very honest man. 690 01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:46,400 And I think in view of some things that he said, including the statement that you're quoting, that he would like to see this whole thing thrown open to real research and real discussion and real disclosure. 691 01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:49,400 He can be of help. I'll tell you that. 692 01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,400 That does clear up my doubt. 693 01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:53,400 He's the best man I've had yet. 694 01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:54,400 Yes, that's right. 695 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,400 And thank you very much for calling. 696 01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:57,400 Thank you very much. 697 01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:58,400 Hello. 698 01:09:58,400 --> 01:09:59,400 Hello, Mr. Douglas. 699 01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:00,400 Yes, sir. 700 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:05,400 I would like to ask Mr. Nasser, your other gentleman. 701 01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:06,400 My good reason. 702 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:07,400 Mr. Edwards. 703 01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:08,400 Mr. Edwards. 704 01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:09,400 Uh-huh. 705 01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:27,400 Supposedly, though, I suppose I've been answered already, but I was wondering about this curious loss of film and the fogging of a film on the last two Germany shots, whether this had to do with the, the fighting or not. 706 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:39,400 In other words, in a, in a, like today's shot, they said the last two films were lost or one was fogged and one was lost, inadvertently. 707 01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:41,400 Earl, I have, are you in for the minute? 708 01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:43,400 I'm in for the minute with that. 709 01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:47,400 I know frequently the contactees will conveniently lose a film. 710 01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:48,400 I heard that. 711 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,400 Well, you better explain to this gentleman who the contactees. 712 01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:57,400 The contactees are the people who claim they've been communicating with creatures from outer space, et cetera. 713 01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,400 But as far as this is concerned, I really don't know. 714 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:01,400 I couldn't answer you. 715 01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:02,400 I'm sorry. 716 01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:19,400 Well, no, I mean, on the, I know they had to walk in space with Commander White, but like on today's TV program, they were saying it's, two films were lost or one was lost on one shot. 717 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:25,400 And one was badly fogged that they, they couldn't show it. 718 01:11:25,400 --> 01:11:28,400 Well, I'll tell you, so many things could cause that. 719 01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:41,400 And particularly the normal radiation out there in space would, would have a tendency to fog film unless the camera was, had some kind of protection around it, probably a lead sheath. 720 01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:52,400 So I don't think that either Earl or I would be in a position to comment on that because it could be due to so many things other than UFO activity. 721 01:11:52,400 --> 01:12:00,400 Oh, well, what I was driving at, maybe they were busy photographing other things. 722 01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:02,400 Yeah, well, that could be, you know, it could be. 723 01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:06,400 And they don't want to show the pictures any by so they say we didn't get it. 724 01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,400 Well, you were talking about loss of communication. 725 01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:24,400 I was noticing today they said on a couple of shots where they were, they didn't have too, too much talk between the ground or at least it wasn't broadcast between the ground and the space capsule. 726 01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:30,400 Well, I think that would be sort of a supposition until more facts were, were gathered. 727 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:40,400 Years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Walker and I showed him some things that had been printed in Europe and then had them translated for him and sent them out to his home. 728 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:49,400 Joseph, the man who did that X-15 flight faster than a human in a plane, you know, and then unfortunately just very recently was killed. 729 01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:53,400 He was a great guy and I had an interesting letter I received from him later. 730 01:12:53,400 --> 01:13:11,400 But while he was up near Seattle, Washington one time, he lectured and was highly criticized for it by NASA because he had spoken of the film that was taken through the gun camera, the pictures that were taken through the gun camera. 731 01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:21,400 And this country shushed it pretty quickly, but in Europe they played it up pretty fast because apparently there were some reporters there who had picked it up and then put it in the European papers. 732 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:24,400 When he cleared it, he was followed by some objects? 733 01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:31,400 Well, he actually himself didn't see them, but actually it was a rear view, a rear view movie camera. 734 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:32,400 Right. 735 01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:37,400 And it photographed these objects coming up in back of the tail of his X-15 rocket plane. 736 01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:41,400 And there were, I believe, five of them. I've got the story there in the book. 737 01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,400 And they flew an echelon formation behind his plane. 738 01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,400 And the official explanation was that these were ice flakes. 739 01:13:49,400 --> 01:14:02,400 Well, now educated ice flakes are something new in the field of aerial phenomena, especially educated ice flakes that can fly in formation behind a plane that's going 25 or 3500 miles an hour. 740 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,400 And were they supposedly approaching the plane? 741 01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:08,400 They kept their distance and they maneuvered with him. 742 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,400 Otherwise they followed the same maneuvers. 743 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:16,400 The oxygen and ice flakes don't maneuver like these did? 744 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:40,400 Mr. Dirk, there is one other thing that was bothering me because before you were saying how on this one account back in the early 20s, or rather going back with this in the 1800s, where this rather cumbersome object was cited. 745 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:41,400 Yes, sir. 746 01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:56,400 And then going all the way back to the 20s, and these people said that they saw this object and they disappeared between that period of time, between the 20s and the 40s. 747 01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:57,400 Right. 748 01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:05,400 In other words, they were just first attempting to contact or fly through space or whatever they were doing. 749 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:15,400 But I can't understand the speed of development between back in the 20s and the present day. 750 01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,400 You mean in the 20 year period? 751 01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:18,400 What? 752 01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:24,400 You mean you think we're crediting them with too much technological improvement in the 20 year period? 753 01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:35,400 Well, I can't...when I balance this, that account against accounts way back in the biblical times that were cited. 754 01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:37,400 This is what's confusing me. 755 01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:45,400 In other words, some of those accounts seem as though they were more advanced then than they were during this period, during the 20s. 756 01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:47,400 Well, no, I don't think so. 757 01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:54,400 And you must remember that technological development can sometimes come very fast. 758 01:15:54,400 --> 01:16:02,400 Don't forget now that eight years ago, we could not get a four pound satellite off the launching pad eight years ago. 759 01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:04,400 And look what we're doing now. 760 01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:06,400 We put one up, it was 8,200 pounds. 761 01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:07,400 Yeah. 762 01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:11,400 And eight years ago, we couldn't get that four pounder off the pad down there. 763 01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,400 Look what we've done in eight years. 764 01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:18,400 Look what we'll be doing if we continue at this rate. 765 01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,400 Look what we'll be doing in eight more years. 766 01:16:21,400 --> 01:16:34,400 And I don't think it's inconceivable at all that someone else could have made the same or even more impressive gains in 10 or 15 or 20 years. 767 01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,400 And could I ask one question? 768 01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:37,400 Yes, sir. 769 01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:44,400 I'd like to conjecture whether it's these crafts possibly are inter-solar or interstellar. 770 01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:53,400 Dr. Herman O'Beth, the great German rocket scientist, said at the end of his investigation of these things for the West German government, 771 01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,400 and he made the statement in October of 54 at Innsbruck. 772 01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:06,400 He said that he and his scientific colleagues who had worked on that commission had come to the unanimous opinion that these things did not originate in our solar system. 773 01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:11,400 But that they hadn't been coming here for a very long time. 774 01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:15,400 And I think that that's about as good a guess as anybody has made yet. 775 01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:22,400 And all the military men and scientists with whom I'm associated are of O'Beth's opinion. 776 01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,400 They share the same view. 777 01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:32,400 No, they don't know where these things come from, but they've obviously been coming here sporadically at least for a long time. 778 01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:35,400 Alright, so thank you for calling. 779 01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:36,400 Hello, Mr. Douglas. 780 01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:37,400 Yes, sir. 781 01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:42,400 Concerning the phenomenon of USOs, UFOs, it's a... 782 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:44,400 Did you turn your radio down, sir? 783 01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:45,400 Yes. 784 01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:46,400 Could you please? 785 01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:58,400 It's been brought to my attention through my observations that possibly from the numerous sightings I've seen over or heard of over the Great Lakes region and the Great Plains area, 786 01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:00,400 these sightings... 787 01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:11,400 Do UFOs have a tendency to be seen in an area where there's a lot of sand and a lot of pure or fresh water now? 788 01:18:11,400 --> 01:18:14,400 Is there any information from...? 789 01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:21,400 Well, you're referring to the steaming preponderance of sightings in the past in the Southwest? 790 01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,400 Right, here and also around the Great Lakes region here. 791 01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:33,400 Well, I'll tell you, I think that the real reason these things are seen more frequently in, say, the Midwest and the Great Plains states in the Southwest, 792 01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:38,400 they're seen more frequently in those areas because the viewing conditions, the seeing conditions are better. 793 01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:48,400 They're around big cities, say New York City, for one thing you've got a lot of haze, and another thing you've got a lot of light in the viewing conditions are poor. 794 01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:58,400 And I don't know that there's any reason to believe that these things have any affinity for either fresh water or sand, 795 01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:04,400 but they do have a tendency to be seen better where the viewing conditions for us are better. 796 01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:05,400 I see. 797 01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:14,400 Also, wasn't there, well, some years ago, in the late 40s and in the 50s, when there was some atomic testing going on in the Southwest, 798 01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:20,400 wouldn't this have been a valid reason for there being a preponderance? 799 01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:27,400 Well, they did visit the White Sands Lardo area, and they also did visit Hanford. 800 01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:40,400 Soon after we got started there, and they, as may be pure coincidence, but they appeared in numbers one year after man fired his first atomic device. 801 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:50,400 Now, whether they came as a result of the tremendous disturbance and the radiation sent out by those devices, and no one can say at this point. 802 01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:51,400 Well, let me stop you there. 803 01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:52,400 Yes. 804 01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:54,400 Let me stop you right there because that's an interesting point. 805 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:58,400 What is one light year away from the Earth? 806 01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,400 Six trillion miles of light year. 807 01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:03,400 Six trillion miles. 808 01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:06,400 I just thought I'd mention it. 809 01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:10,400 Maybe somebody's sitting out there six trillion miles waiting. 810 01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:25,400 Oh, what I was also wondering, you know, there's so much research being done now, and that technical advancements that have been made with silicon is a type of, well, making transistor circuits and so forth. 811 01:20:25,400 --> 01:20:34,400 I just wanted to possibly say that these UFOs were using the sand as a source of energy or something of this nature. 812 01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:38,400 I guess there's really no evidence today. 813 01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:53,400 Well, Dr. Orpeth and other scientists who expressed themselves on the possible means of propulsion used by these craft have all been unanimous in stating that in their opinion they propel themselves by distorting the gravitational field. 814 01:20:53,400 --> 01:21:07,400 This would be in conformity with Einstein's unified field theory, and this is also probably the reason that we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to find out what gravity is and how to use it. 815 01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:20,400 And if we ever find this out, our space travel problems will be largely solved, and these multi-million dollar firecrackers that we use to get off of Cape Kennedy will be relegated to the field of the ox cart. 816 01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:26,400 Now, will you talk about those anti-gravity research? How close do you think we are to that? 817 01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:38,400 Orpeth said that by 1970, men would be going to the moon in electrically propelled devices. They asked him if he meant ion propulsion. 818 01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:55,400 He said, no, I do not. I mean electrically propelled. So I presume that Orpeth, who made that statement just after he left five years at Huntsville, Alabama at the Redstone Arsenal, I imagine that he made that on the basis of information that he gained there. 819 01:21:55,400 --> 01:22:13,400 You know, man has now certainly conquered the problem with G-forces, and in the whole larger picture of space travel, which has to include gravitational freedom, ultimately, according to everything I have heard, 820 01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:22,400 that it must be that we are simply doing the groundwork now, the experimental work that is required to find out what the human reaction is to travel. 821 01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:41,400 Once this gravity problem is overcome, it would seem to me that a lot of questions that we have about the rapid acceleration potential of so-called unidentified flying objects, the weird patterns that it chooses to fly, the sudden changes of direction, all of these things are explainable through gravity. 822 01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:53,400 Yes, through the distortion of the gravitational field. If we could do that, as these things apparently do it, then we would find that many of the problems that we have now would be no longer in existence. 823 01:22:53,400 --> 01:23:02,400 I sometimes think that I have come very, very close to it on this program, in as much as I have been up in the air so many times on this program, seemingly without any help. 824 01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,400 Do you hover? Have you noticed how it would be? Do you hover? 825 01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:10,400 No, I go up and then suddenly reverse the field and come crashing back down again. 826 01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:12,400 Thank you for calling, sir. 827 01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:13,400 Thank you very much. 828 01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:14,400 Hello. 829 01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:26,400 Don't you believe, gentlemen, that our president has a responsibility to the American public, if there is more than just conversation concerning unidentified flying objects? 830 01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:31,400 Well, it's my opinion that he would have a grave responsibility in this area. 831 01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:48,400 And so I have to conclude that it evidently isn't quite as far-reaching or serious thing, as you gentlemen seem to propose, with the lack of this information coming from the public. 832 01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:49,400 Well, wait a minute. 833 01:23:49,400 --> 01:24:02,400 Right in keeping with what you're saying, the president would also have an obligation to carry out the policies which his predecessors had agreed on with the National Safety Council. 834 01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:09,400 And if he carried out those policies and maintained the secrecy that they advocate, he would be doing his job. 835 01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,400 Well, that's exactly what's happening. 836 01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:15,400 Well, the State National Safety Council, I don't quite understand. 837 01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:17,400 National Security Council, poor. 838 01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:18,400 Oh, yeah. 839 01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:20,400 And it was a pretty good car. 840 01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:21,400 And it was pretty good. 841 01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:23,400 You had me zooming off again. 842 01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:30,400 And it was President Eisenhower who said that he wanted everything that was not classified to be released to the public. 843 01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:35,400 And they said, yes, Mr. President. And immediately they punched it classified. 844 01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:38,400 They classified everything in connection with these things. 845 01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:42,400 Well, then are you suggesting that he's derelict in his responsibility? 846 01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:53,400 No, no, no. I'm suggesting that he is carrying out his obligations in conformity with the policies which the president has agreed upon with the National Security Council. 847 01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,400 Oh, yes. That old edict that Eisenhower made. 848 01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,400 Well, it was before him, really. 849 01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:05,400 I think you'd have to stretch imagination to the elastic limit to produce anything political out of this discussion tonight. 850 01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:13,400 I don't think either Mr. Edwards or Mr. Neff have any interest in criticizing the president or any particular interest in criticizing the Air Force. 851 01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:18,400 I would suggest that there's nothing political involved here at all, but simply a matter of policy. 852 01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:26,400 And no one is very clear on where that policy was originated or just why it has been perpetuated if indeed it is a policy. 853 01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:34,400 Well, I think that they have actually, Alan, to some degree made a joke out of some Air Force pronouncements. 854 01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,400 And I don't know if you want to refer to that as criticism or not. 855 01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:42,400 Frankly, I don't pretend to be informed on this matter at all. 856 01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:55,400 And it's just what I thought is a logical question that our president, if this is such a grave issue, I would feel would have a very definite responsibility to inform the American public. 857 01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:59,400 Well, let me say this. I've been close to this subject for 20 years. 858 01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:05,400 And I know that the Air Force was given this assignment. It's a very difficult assignment. 859 01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:15,400 And as I said earlier in the program, I think they have done a good job with a very difficult assignment within the restrictions which were placed on them. 860 01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:22,400 And these restrictions were placed from the very top. They cover not only the Air Force, but all the military. 861 01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:28,400 So they had to originate somewhere around or in the National Security Council. 862 01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:37,400 And if the National Security Council thinks that this should be done in a certain way, you may be sure that the president will cooperate fully with that conclusion. 863 01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:41,400 And I think that's what's happened. I don't think there's anything political about it. 864 01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,400 I haven't suggested that there is. 865 01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:46,400 No, no, that's right. 866 01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:47,400 I haven't suggested that there is. 867 01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:52,400 That's right. And I agree with you. And I think that that answers your question. 868 01:26:52,400 --> 01:27:02,400 That he is simply, regardless of who the president is, he is simply concurring in the policy which was set up and set up at a very high level. 869 01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:08,400 And I think that answers your question because I think that really is why it's done the way it's done. 870 01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:16,400 Yes, well, it does, Frank. But you did make one statement. I thought it was rather funny. You thought it would be impossible for three men to spend 10 minutes. 871 01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:26,400 Well, I don't think you could look over the poverty program. But I think that quite a few millions spent by some people. 872 01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:30,400 Of course, one of these guys was a sergeant. Would they even spend that kind of money? 873 01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:32,400 I don't think so. 874 01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:39,400 It's amazing to me how we have come really from intergalactic travel to the poverty program. But we have. 875 01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:41,400 Oh, well, Alan, you know, what's up on in the day, you know. 876 01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:44,400 Yes, and it's been quite a day. Thank you very much for calling. 877 01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:47,400 Alan, I'm faster than light, you know. 878 01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,400 Yes, and logic perhaps. 879 01:27:50,400 --> 01:28:03,400 Talking tonight with Frank Edwards is an experience for me because Mr. Edwards, along with Earl Miff tonight, certainly articulates the situation beautifully 880 01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:09,400 and tells us of great many things that concern them and the great many things which remain unanswered. 881 01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:19,400 The fact that these answers seem, and these questions seem to want answers is something I don't think any of us can really ignore. 882 01:28:19,400 --> 01:28:28,400 Let me say that while I have never seen what could be described as an unidentified flying object, I also don't spend very much time looking for them. 883 01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:38,400 And I have not put in the years of research and study and careful sifting of facts and of analysis that Frank has put in, that Earl Miff has put in. 884 01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:45,400 And therefore my position is that I choose to sit and listen. I think it would be a mistake for any of us not to. 885 01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:53,400 I also think that there is an odd kind of put down that we have had in programs in the past. 886 01:28:53,400 --> 01:29:01,400 It hasn't happened tonight. It's a strange kind of a put down, Frank, on this kind of discussion from certain kinds of people. 887 01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:02,400 Do you run across this at all? 888 01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:10,400 Yes, yes. As I told that lady a while ago, this is a field where the only skeptics are the uninformed. 889 01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:14,400 And the more uninformed they are, the more skeptical they are. 890 01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:33,400 But after you have done any reasonable measure of research in this field, you become aware that there is a great deal more to it than you would think from reading the various official statements and put out dismissing these things as luminous flying ants and so forth. 891 01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:43,400 And after you have seen one yourself there, there is no question in your mind that you have seen something very unusual. 892 01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:54,400 You know, actually the swamp gas thing may have been a help to people like yourself because I think it turned off a great many people in the swamp gas theory, Professor. 893 01:29:54,400 --> 01:30:03,400 Oh, sure, sure. That did more to discredit the Air Force as a source of information on this subject. 894 01:30:03,400 --> 01:30:23,400 And I had a feeling that perhaps they did it deliberately because I've had a feeling from statements that were made to me by some prominent people in the Air Force in recent years that they would like to be rid of this thing, that they would like to get out from under this and turn it over to somebody else. 895 01:30:23,400 --> 01:30:41,400 It's not a military problem. There's no hostility from these things as Dr. Heineken, Dr. Carl Sagan and others said to the Congressional Investigations Committee earlier this year, this is a purely scientific problem and should be dealt with on that basis. 896 01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:56,400 And I think that the Air Force may have done a few things like the swamp gas story and some of the others to get itself out of the business, to get back into its own field of endeavor and turn this thing over to somebody else. 897 01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:57,400 Hello. 898 01:30:57,400 --> 01:30:58,400 Yes, sir? 899 01:30:58,400 --> 01:30:59,400 Yes, sir. 900 01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:01,400 Roger Shrack in Mansfield, Ohio. 901 01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:02,400 Yes, sir. 902 01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:12,400 I've been listening to your discussion and I thought maybe Mr. Edwards would want to comment on the author Raymond Bernard that wrote the Hollow Earth. 903 01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:22,400 A while ago I noticed that he said that perhaps these UFOs weren't necessarily interplanetary and I was wondering if maybe he had that in mind when he made that statement. 904 01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:28,400 Well, I'm going to hang on that question breathlessly because I'm dying to know what Frank Edwards says too. 905 01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:44,400 Well, I didn't exactly have Mr. Bernard or the Hollow Earth book in mind when I made that statement. However, I'm glad you asked the question because in one of the earlier editions of his book Bernard started off by saying, 906 01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:50,400 my good friend Frank Edwards, I never saw or heard of the man until he wrote this book. 907 01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:54,400 The theory of the Hollow Earth is a very, very old one. 908 01:31:54,400 --> 01:32:09,400 In this country it got started with a man named John Sims who was a farmer in Ohio and he was a captain in the army during the war of 1812 and Captain Sims got hit over the head with a musket butt. 909 01:32:09,400 --> 01:32:18,400 And he was never the same after that. He couldn't remember which way to lead his men toward the enemy and he sometimes led them in the wrong direction. 910 01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:32,400 And so they sent Captain Sims home and he sat on the courthouse lawn and whittled out hollow wooden balls, which he told other spitting little fellows around there, were models of the Hollow Earth. 911 01:32:32,400 --> 01:32:45,400 He also pestered members of Congress and scientists for years with letters urging them to finance an expedition to the North Pole, which he would lead, of course, Captain Sims. 912 01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:51,400 And he would lead it and to find the hole where people were going in and out of the Hollow Earth. 913 01:32:51,400 --> 01:33:04,400 The theory is old and I think that Sims' condition, due to that blow on the head, probably accounted for his enthusiasm for it. 914 01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:11,400 I have always felt that the theory of a Hollow Earth would only appeal to people with hollow heads. 915 01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:13,400 I think that puts it pretty clearly. 916 01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:22,400 Yeah, when you say that the Nile statement, the Naval Department has knowledge of Hollow Earth, through into the Hollow Earth, there's all this fiction. 917 01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:30,400 Yes, that's right. Because I grant you that Hollow Earth, that's the Admiral Bird, did not fly into any Hollow Earth. 918 01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:32,400 Well, I just thought it'd go up there. 919 01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:33,400 Thank you for calling. 920 01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:34,400 Okay. 921 01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:35,400 Thank you, sir. 922 01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:40,400 I'm glad the point came up because it's one of the things that bugs me. 923 01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:46,400 I read about this book in magazines, advertised in a number of different publications. 924 01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:53,400 That outfit that sells that book has a mail drop up there in the hall of this building that they've listed as their headquarters. 925 01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:57,400 They have a kid that goes around there a couple of times a day and picks up the mail. 926 01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:59,400 And that's the publishing company. 927 01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:00,400 And they're selling the books. 928 01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:01,400 Oh, they sure are. 929 01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:04,400 Well, I put down the whole Hollow Earth thing. 930 01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:08,400 And apparently it's not just one book available. 931 01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:13,400 Oh, no, he's got a dozen books and all about that same caliber. 932 01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:18,400 Yeah. There is just one little thing I would like to read. Do I have the author's permission to quote? 933 01:34:18,400 --> 01:34:21,400 Well, please do. You've got to quote from that great book, Finding the Sousher. 934 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:29,400 Yes, that great book always goes into various business, which incidentally doesn't need much help from me because it's number seven on the bestselling list. 935 01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:30,400 Six now? 936 01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:31,400 Six, yes. 937 01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:37,400 It's coming up. The bestsellers list of nonfiction. And that means it's doing pretty well. 938 01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,400 I think it's deservedly so too because it's written so well. 939 01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:45,400 But there's something here that really I think you ought to know about. 940 01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:48,400 It's one of the most significant parts of the book. 941 01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,400 It comes right up at the beginning, almost on page 18. 942 01:34:51,400 --> 01:35:00,400 And this is the story of a book called The Book of Desire, which is a Chronicle of Ancient India, 943 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:07,400 a translation of which I understand Frank you were able to obtain through relative... 944 01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:11,400 Yes, this fellow was a doctor at Georgetown College. 945 01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:13,400 Because nephew of mine. 946 01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:18,400 The book is a compilation of legend and Frank writes passed down through the ages before men were able to write 947 01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:23,400 and finally gathered in a manuscript form by the ancient scholars who preserved them for us. 948 01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:28,400 They tell of a small group of beings who came to Earth many thousands of years ago in a metal craft 949 01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:32,400 which first went around the Earth several times before landing. 950 01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:38,400 These beings, as the book lived to themselves, and were revered by the humans among whom they had settled. 951 01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:42,400 But eventually differences arose among them and they divided their numbers. 952 01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:47,400 Several of the men and women and some children settling in another city where they were promptly installed 953 01:35:47,400 --> 01:35:50,400 as rulers by the Austrian populace. 954 01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:55,400 Separation did not bring peace to these people and finally their anger reached a point where the ruler 955 01:35:55,400 --> 01:36:03,400 of the original city took with him a small number of his warriors and they rose into the air in a huge shining metal vessel. 956 01:36:03,400 --> 01:36:11,400 While there were many leagues from the city of their enemies they launched a great shining lance that rode on a beam of light. 957 01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:17,400 It burst apart in the city of their enemies with a great ball of flame that shot up to the heavens almost to the stars. 958 01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:24,400 All those in the city were horribly burned and even those who were not in the city but nearby were burned also. 959 01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:28,400 Those who looked upon the lance and the ball of fire were blinded forever afterward. 960 01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:32,400 Those who entered the city on foot became ill and died. 961 01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:36,400 Even the dust of the city was poisoned as were the rivers that flowed through it. 962 01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:42,400 Men dared not go near it and it gradually crumbled into dust and was forgotten by men. 963 01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:47,400 When the leader saw what he had done to his own people he retired to his palace and refused to see anyone. 964 01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:52,400 There he gathered about him those of his warriors who remained and their wives and their children 965 01:36:52,400 --> 01:36:57,400 and they entered into their vessels and rose one by one into the sky and sailed away. 966 01:36:57,400 --> 01:36:59,400 Nor did they return. 967 01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:05,400 You think about that and read Frank's account as opinion afterward. 968 01:37:05,400 --> 01:37:15,400 You see how close that comes to rocketry, to nuclear destruction and this ages and ages ago in an ancient Indian culture. 969 01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:18,400 It's estimated that that was about six thousand years before Christ. 970 01:37:19,400 --> 01:37:23,400 Frank Edwards, thank you very much for giving us something to think about tonight. 971 01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:27,400 I would like to wish you the very best of luck with your book, Shaking the Louse. 972 01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:28,400 Thank you very much. 973 01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:29,400 It's a great pleasure to see you. 974 01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:30,400 Thank you, sir. 975 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:34,400 Now, I would just like to leave the audience with a thought if I may. 976 01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:38,400 I hope the horse can be forgiven, his tendency to fantasize. 977 01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:42,400 But I find this final observation in the book that we just made irresistible. 978 01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:48,400 Wouldn't it be wild and exquisitely ironic if after all the sophistication of the 20th century, 979 01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:52,400 after all the goddess dead theories and all the successful space shots, 980 01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:58,400 after all the advanced research into LSD and all the hipping up of mankind on DNA and RNA, 981 01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:03,400 it turned out that this planet really did host extraterrestrial visitors ages ago. 982 01:38:03,400 --> 01:38:09,400 What if it turned out that through UFOs lies our contact with some valid or tangible kind of heaven, 983 01:38:09,400 --> 01:38:12,400 a reachable before death kind of heaven? 984 01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:21,400 What if it should turn out that some of our most ancient teachings and tellings were simply forms of UFO reports told in the non-technological terms of another age? 985 01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:30,400 Or go and stop further supposing the heaven that was told to people here on Earth by these allegedly extraterrestrial travelers 986 01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:37,400 turned out to be not so good after all and the heaven that we think of in our minds, really the heaven right here on Earth. 987 01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:42,400 What strange and wonderful things we can encounter in the future and look forward to.